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The Elder Scrolls Forums _ Elder Scrolls Lore _ OOC Discussion

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 12:19 AM

The Lore/RP section of the Oblivion hype has begun, first with MK's http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=158245, then with Master Fyr's letter on http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=161636, and continuing with the extremely interesting http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=163171 thread. I would feel bad cluttering these threads (especially the last, considering the multiple devs trying to have a conversation) with OOC discussion, but I can't stand not to talk about the new lore. Thus we come to this thread. Its purpose is to discuss, presumably out of character (if you're in character, then just post on the original thread like Nigedo), the new and exciting lore tidbits to be found in the two threads.

Since I'm starting the topic, I'll begin:

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 22 2005, 03:40 PM)

Forgive my direct sending, Chancellor, and know that I do this with the respect of every ancestor in my beard, but Grandmaster Jauffre has never responded to previous efforts to warn Empire Actual of the findings of the Sphinxmoth Inquiry Tree. I admit that these warnings may have been too esoteric to merit the attention they deserve.

In short, the Barrier is weakening, and I know why.

So, the Sphinxmoth Inquiry Tree wasn't about mortal gods at all (which was the assumption I made upon reading http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/nu-hatta.shtml); I guess that was just a side note. Its purpuse, apparently, was to investigate the weakening of the barrier between Oblivion and Mundus. If this was under way before the death of the Emperor, which it seems to have been, then the end of the line is not solely responsible for the opening of the marble jaws. Perhaps Seht's bargain was, indeed, part of the cause.

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 22 2005, 03:40 PM)

Moreso, I have uncovered a conspiracy that stretches back to Dawntime and the split of Aldmeris. Empire Actual is threatened by forces of previous realities, and the Ayleids are not destroyed at all.

I assume that this conspiracy is the Mythic Dawn, discussed in dev interviews, a group of people (presumably Daedric cultists) who are trying to bring about the invasion from Oblivion. And they are allied with the Ayleids? Interesting. The Ayleids haven't been serious enemies of the Empire since the http://til.gamingsource.net/history/1.shtml, when Empress Alessia led her people in a revolt against their elven masters and founded the First Empire. I suppose that this could be said to have been a previous reality, since at least one Dragon Break has occured since that time.

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 22 2005, 03:40 PM)

The moths closest to my ears and lips once served under Belharza the Bull during their corporeal stage.

Wow. That was http://til.gamingsource.net/history/1.shtml.

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 22 2005, 04:18 PM)

To speak in the fires of time is to render the speaker a subject of the matron Jills, those servants of the Dragon that mend minutes without volunteer.

Well, now we know what the Jills of Akatosh are.

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 22 2005, 04:18 PM)

Only through freedom can true words remain untouched.

Freedom? Is this the same concept as the "Liberty" discussed http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=158245?

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 22 2005, 06:07 PM)

Scholarship on the subject of the metaphysical Tower is at an all-time high. Not since the Selective have we seen so much dangerous interest in the shezzarite power-symbols. Do any here think this an accident? That such work is not influenced by doppeldream and unlawful messaging? Do any here think this is not the work of the Tharnatos and his sleepers?

The fall of Red Tower should not be seen as the suave conquest of Cyrodiil's agencies, for we have been tricked again by the Dagonites. Though through long eras the chimerical landgods have subverted Divine rule, their protection of the First Stone should have remained as it was: the ironic protection of our enemies to our Enemy.

The Towers of the terrestrial plane have had their histories cloaked in lies and misinterpretations. That the lands they hold dominion over reverberate with troubles now in east and west should give common consent that they are reacting to an Empire-wide attention, sublunar and on dread purpose.

Presumably one of these towers is the White Gold Tower, once held by the Ayleids, later taken by the Empire. I don't know what the "Red Tower" is, though. I also wonder how much of this is related to Vehk's teaching concerning http://til.gamingsource.net/vehk/vehk03.shtml. As for "the Tharnatos," I would guess that this is Jagar Tharn, just based on the name. How does he still play a role?

All in all...wow. So, now it's everyone else's turn. Thoughts on the documents? Thoughts or criticisms on what I've said? Stuff you just want to have heard? This information is important enough to discuss, so let's discuss it!

Posted by: Allerleirauh Sep 23 2005, 12:51 AM

Red Tower would appear to be Red Mountain, and the First Stone the heart. Nu-Hatta would appear to be saying that the the Dagonites tricked the Empire into setting up the Nerevarine's destruction of the heart, which has led to the weakening of the Barrier.

Posted by: Only Asks Once Sep 23 2005, 01:02 AM

Presumably one of these towers is the White Gold Tower, once held by the Ayleids, later taken by the Empire. I don't know what the "Red Tower" is, though. I also wonder how much of this is related to Vehk's teaching concerning the Tower. As for "the Tharnatos," I would guess that this is Jagar Tharn, just based on the name. How does he still play

I agree with Allerleirauh. The Red Tower must be Red Mountain. I am also pleased, I suppose, to have my theories of the Fall of the Tribunal leading to the Daedric Invasion (at least indirectly). It seems that Azura did trick the Nerevarine into breaking the Enchantments on the Heart, thus leading to the Tribunals downfall, and eliminating their largest obstacles.

OOC: Azura's Star: I respect your idea to keep the original thread uncluttered with a bunch of "Kewl Post, Dude!" Thanks for thinking of it.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 01:06 AM

QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Sep 22 2005, 10:51 PM)

Hmmm...makes sense. I should have realized that a "tower" need not be man-(or mer-)made.

I'm not sure that the Empire was necessarily tricked. It was clearly in their best interest to see Dagoth Ur stopped, and I expect that, whatever unintended consequences may spring from it, they will stand by their decision in hindsight. Of course, if the Dagonites (presumably the Mythic Dawn) were going to benefit from the events of Morrowind as well, then they may have seen a (very temporary) common purpose, and actually helped the Empire out in the short term.

I wonder: Did the destruction of the Heart weaken the bonds in and of itself, or only as it contributed to the downfall of the Tribunal, who were among the champions of the resistance to Daedric intervention in Mundus?

*edit*

QUOTE(Only Asks Once @ Sep 22 2005, 11:02 PM)

OOC: Azura's Star: I respect your idea to keep the original thread uncluttered with a bunch of "Kewl Post, Dude!" Thanks for thinking of it.

I'm glad you're pleased .

Posted by: Allerleirauh Sep 23 2005, 01:08 AM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 23 2005, 01:06 AM)

I wonder: Did the destruction of the Heart weaken the bonds in and of itself, or only as it contributed to the downfall of the Tribunal, who were among the champions of the resistance to Daedric intervention in Mundus?

No clue. I think that's a better question for the other thread.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 01:24 AM

QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Sep 22 2005, 11:08 PM)

No clue. I think that's a better question for the other thread.

Reading over that quote again in light of your commentary, I hold my question to be partially answered:

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 22 2005, 06:07 PM {emphasis mine})

Though through long eras the chimerical landgods have subverted Divine rule, their protection of the First Stone should have remained as it was: the ironic protection of our enemies to our Enemy.

These things are clear references to the Tribunal's role in preventing the Daedric invasion. I think that if Nu-Hatta had meant that the First Stone itself had been holding back the hordes of Oblivion, he'd have placed more emphasis on it and less on its guardians.

Posted by: Apophis2412 Sep 23 2005, 01:42 AM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 23 2005, 01:24 AM)

Reading over that quote again in light of your commentary, I hold my question to be partially answered:
These things are clear references to the Tribunal's role in preventing the Daedric invasion. I think that if Nu-Hatta had meant that the First Stone itself had been holding back the hordes of Oblivion, he'd have placed more emphasis on it and less on its guardians.

Wel the Tribunal did pose a significant thread to the Daedra. All three of them several times defeated a daedra prince.
Just think of:
-Old Mournhold
- The floating moon in Vivec.
- The large rock in Maar Gan.

And Vivec defeated the so-called biters in one of the 36 sermons, but I don't know if why can really see that as fact.

It's ironic that the Empire engineerd it's own downfall. By freeing the prisoner and letting him become Nerevarine, they have let most of the Tribunal killed.

Another thing, tihs Nu-hatta mentions the First Stone and it's connection to the Tribunal. Does this mean that certain people in the Empire knew the real reason behind the Tribunal's divinity? I thought that all this knowledge was being supressed by the Tribunal.
And if some Imperials know, then some dunmer must know as well.

Posted by: Allerleirauh Sep 23 2005, 01:47 AM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 23 2005, 01:24 AM)

I read that exact sentence in the exact opposite sense. What is important is their protection: of the first stone.

Posted by: Shardie Sep 23 2005, 02:17 AM

by reading the last of the posts, in paticularly Nu-mutra's/Fyr's post, I can feel tension in the words, almost as if it was a dissagreement in the air...

Anyway, I am no good in the hidden meanings behind these things, so I'll leave it to the professionals

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 23 2005, 11:23 AM

Just a quick note on the Towers under discussion, for clarity;

Adamantium (aka Direnni) - Here referred to as the Ur-Tower of reality

Red - Red Mountain, Morrowind

White-Gold - White Gold Tower, Cyrodiil

Crystal-like-Law - Crystal Tower, Summurset

Orichalc - never heard of this one, perhaps Hammerfell (assoc. with Diagna?)

Green-Sap - seems likely this is Falinesti, the giant tree capital of Valenwood

Walk-Brass - Anumidium

Snow Throat - Throat of the World mountain, Skyrim

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 11:55 AM

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Sep 23 2005, 09:23 AM)

Just a quick note on the Towers under discussion, for clarity;
Adamantium (aka Direnni) - Here referred to as the Ur-Tower of reality

Red - Red Mountain, Morrowind

White-Gold - White Gold Tower, Cyrodiil

Crystal-like-Law - Crystal Tower, Summurset

Orichalc - never heard of this one, perhaps Hammerfell (assoc. with Diagna?)

Green-Sap - seems likely this is Falinesti, the giant tree capital of Valenwood

Walk-Brass - Anumidium

Snow Throat - Throat of the World mountain, Skyrim

Well, that's extremely helpful. Thanks.

Since each tower represents a differing philosophical group of the Aldmer, though, I would guess that Orichalc is not in Hammerfell, but on Pyandonea. Now, after the first tower (Ada-Mantia) we have the towers which resulted from it (directly or indirectly). And, if you'll notice, there is one for each elven racial group:

Red - Dunmer/Chimer

White-Gold - Ayleid

Crystal-like-Law - Altmer

Orichalc - Maormer

Green-Sap - Bosmer

Walk-Brass - Dwemer

Snow Throat - Falmer

@Allerleirauh, I don't know, you could definitely be right. It does emphasize their role as protectors of the First Stone more than anything else, so you probably are.

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 23 2005, 08:57 AM)

This sundering of purpose is the myth of the "destruction of Aldmeris." Outside of the Dawn, and even then only in the dreamtime of its landscape, there was never a terrestrial homeland of the Elves. "Old Ehlnofey" is a magical ideal of mixed memories of the Dawn.

Do not believe the written histories.

All mortal life started on the starry heart of Dawn's beauty, Tamriel.

Hmmm...so, Aldmeris/Old Ehlnofey is nothing but a metaphor for times long gone. Interesting. Time for ArthmodeusD to update his map .

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 23 2005, 12:00 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 23 2005, 04:55 PM)

Aldmeris/Old Ehlnofey is nothing but a metaphor for times long gone.

I have long held that belief and let out an audible whoop of joy to hear it supported by a respected NPC scholar.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 12:03 PM

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Sep 23 2005, 10:00 AM)

I have long held that belief and let out an audible whoop of joy to hear it supported by a respected NPC scholar.

NPC? I wonder if Nu-Hatta will, indeed, show up in-game. If so, I hope his dialogue does him justice; Vehk's in-game speechifying was rather dull compared to his writing and posting .

Posted by: BbaxterD Sep 23 2005, 12:04 PM

If Tharnatos is Jagar Tharn, then his sleepers are likely the Dopplegangers he supposedly put into place.

If each tower is representative of a different split in the Aldmer, then perhaps each tower is related to the various Aldmer descendants. If so, could not Orichalc be the result of the Orcs? Or, that is to say the ancestors of the Orcs, the Orismer.

If so, that would cover each of the cultural differing Aldmer having a tower related to them, with the exception of the Adamantium. Using Nigedo's list, it may be arranged like this:

Red Mountain - Chimer
White Gold Tower - Ayelid
Crystal Tower - Altmer
Orichalc (Orsinium) - Orismer
Falinesti - Bosmer
Anumidium -Dwemer
Throat of the World Mountain - Falmer

This is exluding the Khajit, which may be a descendent of the Aldmer, however, they were changed by Azura, so I am skeptical as to the Khajits relevence.

Edit - I post too slow. I had not considered the Moarmer. With that exception, the lists match

Posted by: Sinder Velvin Sep 23 2005, 12:06 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 23 2005, 07:03 PM)

If so, I hope his dialogue does him justice; Vehk's in-game speechifying was rather dull compared to his writing and posting .

I think you should blame Ken for that.

QUOTE(BbaxterD @ Sep 23 2005, 07:04 PM)

Red Mountain - Chimer
White Gold Tower - Ayelid
Crystal Tower - Altmer
Orichalc (Orsinium) - Orismer
Falinesti - Bosmer
Anumidium -Dwemer
Throat of the World Mountain - Falmer

And the Maormer?

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 12:09 PM

QUOTE(BbaxterD @ Sep 23 2005, 10:04 AM)

If each tower is representative of a different split in the Aldmer, then perhaps each tower is related to the various Aldmer descendants. If so, could not Orichalc be the result of the Orcs? Or, that is to say the ancestors of the Orcs, the Orismer.

If so, that would cover each of the cultural differing Aldmer having a tower related to them, with the exception of the Adamantium. Using Nigedo's list, it may be arranged like this:

Red Mountain - Chimer
White Gold Tower - Ayelid
Crystal Tower - Altmer
Orichalc (Orsinium) - Orismer
Falinesti - Bosmer
Anumidium -Dwemer
Throat of the World Mountain - Falmer

This is exluding the Khajit, which may be a descendent of the Aldmer, however, they were changed by Azura, so I am skeptical as to the Khajits relevence.

Edit - I post too slow. I had not considered the Moarmer. With that exception, the lists match

If we exclude the Khajiit because they were changed by Azura, can't we exclude the Orcs by the same logic? They were, after all, changed by Boethiah's consumption of Trinimac. I think that the Khajiit and Orsimer were changed after the time of the construction of the towers, and so can be safely ignored for the purposes of this debate.

*edit*

QUOTE(Sinder Velvin @ Sep 23 2005, 10:06 AM)

I think you should blame Ken for that.

Well, this time they can give MK a raise and let him write some dialogue in addition to his books.

Posted by: BbaxterD Sep 23 2005, 12:12 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 23 2005, 12:09 PM)

I agree. But, I hesitate to put Orichalc with the Moarmer as a result of my relative ignorance regarding the Moarmer. Yet, I agree with your list, which accounts for all of the "unchanged" Mer of Tamriel.

Also, TIL isn't working for me right now. So, I'll have to wait before I do anymore analysis.

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 23 2005, 12:14 PM

I think you chaps, Azura's Star and BbaxterD, are correct to assign the towers to the Aldmeri variant races - I hadn't made that leap.

But we can't know for sure, based on limited information, which race the Orichalc relates to. Nor do we know whether there may be others to represent the missing one or, possibly, two races not covered.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 12:16 PM

QUOTE(BbaxterD @ Sep 23 2005, 10:12 AM)

Well, I only put it there through the process of elimination, so your hesitation is probably justified. I'm not really that sure of Orichalc.

TIL works fine for me, so I don't know what's up with that .

Posted by: B Sep 23 2005, 12:19 PM

There is a reference to Tharnatos in http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/chaos.shtml.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 12:37 PM

QUOTE(B @ Sep 23 2005, 10:19 AM)

There is a reference to Tharnatos in http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/chaos.shtml.

Hmmm. Interesting, but not much help in determining the identity. I guess deities probably don't leave "papers" lying around, so that limits it to mortals. I'd still guess that it's Jagar Tharn.

Posted by: Luagar2 Sep 23 2005, 12:38 PM

As to the towers,

"Aldmeris bore witness and built the remaining towers during the Merethic: White-Gold, Crystal-like-Law, Orichalc, Green-Sap, Walk-Brass, Snow Throat, and on and on, "aad semblio impera.""

Would "and on and on" not suggest that there are more...

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 12:43 PM

QUOTE(Luagar2 @ Sep 23 2005, 10:38 AM)

It would, but I think the ones that were listed specifically were probably the most relevant. "And on and on" may refer to later towers, perhaps those built by men rather than mer. I don't really know.

Posted by: BbaxterD Sep 23 2005, 01:11 PM

Figured out why the page isn't loading. I don't think it likes FireFox 1.5 Beta. Oh well, not a problem.

Also, reading over the passages again, here:

QUOTE

The outcome of the Convention was to leave the terrestrial sphere in their excess, for its own good, but that it should last after their departure as in the semblance of the Ada-mantia. Mundus was given its second Tower, the Red, whose First Stone was the Heart of the World, "as in the image."

It says that Mundus was given the Tower of the Red (assumed to be Red Mountain). If this is the case, then it seems that the Chimer did not build a tower. It would make some sense, being that they rejected the Eight in favor of the Daedra.

And, perhaps, the Chimer were led to Morrowind by the Daedra specifically because of the "first stone". Pure speculation, but it does help to hint towards a plot started long before the Empire was even around.

Also, a little bit on Fyr's letter. It mentions that all of Uriel's known heirs were killed and implies that the heir is a *hidden* heir. Pretty interesting. I wonder what that is going to mean.

Posted by: proweler Sep 23 2005, 01:40 PM

Considering most Emperors had both the virility and monetary requirements that are needed to leed a "fruitfull" life, I'm supriced that the excistance of an other -although not legally- heir suprices pepole.

Posted by: VXSS Sep 23 2005, 02:00 PM

Just to clarify, The Dragon's Chilled Blood is not a lore banter or RP discussion. I recently read many previews that hinted chargen/storyline/plots concerning Oblivion and I just wanted to throw a very simple gist of an NPC's take. Keeping it vague and relying on LEGIT known facts vs assumptions. Agreed, it was uninteresting, but taken for what it was worth, it just clarified things that were printed in a more "trusting" manner.

Posted by: Adanorcil Sep 23 2005, 02:03 PM

QUOTE(VXSS @ Sep 23 2005, 08:00 PM)

It's much appreciated still. It gives us a hint that the devs really don't forget the lore forums.

Posted by: Apophis2412 Sep 23 2005, 02:04 PM

QUOTE(VXSS @ Sep 23 2005, 02:00 PM)

I thought of that, because it was less vague than the other two.
And it confirmed things we already knew. With the prison and all.

Posted by: proweler Sep 23 2005, 02:05 PM

Got to apriciate the straws you can hold on to . Not to many of those around these days.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 02:24 PM

QUOTE(BbaxterD @ Sep 23 2005, 11:11 AM)

No, they didn't build it, but they adopted it. That's why I said that the lesser towers resulted from Ada-Mantia "directly or indirectly" in my earlier post on the subject. The Chimeri philosophy didn't require them to build their own tower, only to claim one that was not currently in use.

@VXSS, It wasn't anything new, but it's still nice to have something I can quote without having to turn to OOC (and, for that matter, out of world) dev quotes. Thanks!

Posted by: Stargazey Sep 23 2005, 03:38 PM

I think that the opening of the gates have reprecussions far beyond that of the Daedric invasion. This is opening the Empire to total anarchy.

This is, in my view, the tip of the iceberg.

To say the least.

Posted by: Marlo LaCroa Sep 23 2005, 05:08 PM

QUOTE(Luagar2 @ Sep 23 2005, 01:38 PM)

Of course, there is aslo Silgrad Tower. Which is an actual Dunmer/Chimer built tower.

Posted by: Allerleirauh Sep 23 2005, 05:19 PM

Um... my first instinct regarding Orichalc is to run it through the search engine at TIL, which yields this:

QUOTE

Antabolis Hasphat : Ah, the great 82 Crodo stoops from his rarefied perch in the archives of Alinor to dabble in the mundane.

Your coy inferences to the Dark Elven Curse do you no credit. Cite your sources, sir! There is not a shred of evidence that the Dunmer were ever other than they are now, despite centuries of research and speculation. You call yourself a scholar, sir, yet you provide fodder for the ever-multiplying array of quacks and lunatics that infest the Empire.

82 Crodo : As ever, you misread me, Antabolis. I never painted a portrait of Dunmeri in the Orichalc Kingdoms of the Ebony Men; merely, I pointed out larger Aldmeri influences in Yokuda that could be useful to modern (or, in your case, armchair) etymologists.

QUOTE

Diagna (Orichalc God of the Sideways Blade): Hoary thuggish cult of the Redguards. Originated in Yokuda during the Twenty Seven Snake Folk Slaughter. Diagna was an avatar of the HoonDing (the Yokudan God of Make Way, see below) that achieved permanence. He was instrumental to the defeat of the Lefthanded Elves, as he brought orichalc weapons to the Yokudan people to win the fight. In Tamriel, he led a very tight knit group of followers against the Orcs of Orsinium during the height of their ancient power, but then faded into obscurity. He is now little more than a local power spirit of the Dragontail mountains.

Looks like Hammerfell to me.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 05:30 PM

That second quote makes me think that maybe "orichalc" is the Yokudan word for Ebony.

Posted by: Marlo LaCroa Sep 23 2005, 05:31 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 23 2005, 06:30 PM)

That second quote makes me think that maybe "orichalc" is the Yokudan word for Ebony.

Possibly. The "Ebony Men" aswell.

Posted by: proweler Sep 23 2005, 06:00 PM

Anybody considerd the possibility that tower isn't a tower or the tower but a different tower? The Red Tower would be a methaphore for the Tribunal. The whitgold one for Auriel's public ascension, walking brass for Talos, ect.

Posted by: vaanic~one Sep 23 2005, 07:29 PM

QUOTE( Nu Hatta)

The most nefarious Tower, Walk-Brass, refuted even more, refuting unto dis-creation, but we shall come to its role in the present danger to Emperor Actual in a moment. It is but a lesser pawn to the greater evil:

QUOTE( Nigedo)

Walk-Brass - Anumidium

QUOTE( Azura's star)

Walk-Brass - Dwemer

So, we have either a 3000 ft Brass god, or a race of extinct mer still posing a threat to the "Emperor Actual".

I think I may just be making a silly/tired/stupid/ignorant point, but it's worth posting anyway, just in case I'm onto something....

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 07:32 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 23 2005, 04:00 PM)

No, I didn't consider this, really. It's a good theory. If we work from it, though, I'm completely at a loss when it comes to some of the other towers. Green-Sap? Snow-Throat? What mortal ascensions could these terms possibly refer to?

Still, it's interesting to see Nu-Hatta's words applied to the metaphorical tower, rather than to physical constructions.

*edit*

QUOTE(vaanic~one @ Sep 23 2005, 05:29 PM)

I don't see anything silly, tired, stupid, or ignorant in pointing this out. I was certainly pretty surprised when I read that the Brass God had a role yet to play in the downfall of the Empire. How is it even still relevant, except as an interesting historical anecdote? However:

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 23 2005, 05:16 PM)

...we shall come to its role in the present danger to Emperor Actual in a moment.

I'm content to wait for Nu-Hatta's further explanation before I start to theorize, since it's already been promised.

Posted by: vaanic~one Sep 23 2005, 07:49 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 23 2005, 08:32 PM)

I don't see anything silly, tired, stupid, or ignorant in pointing this out. I was certainly pretty surprised when I read that the Brass God had a role yet to play in the downfall of the Empire.

Well, I just wanted to point out how scary/freaky/significant that was....

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 23 2005, 08:30 PM

QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Sep 23 2005, 10:19 PM)

Um... my first instinct regarding Orichalc is to run it through the search engine at TIL, which yields this:
Looks like Hammerfell to me.

Thanks Alli. I saw the Diagna reference, but missed the Obscure one.

That's good info. Makes me consider that the Orichalc Tower is a Yokudan reference. But I'm just covering my butt.

I thought the title of Diagna suggestive; "Orichalc God of the Sideways Blade" reminds me of "Sideways Wheel". Both form an "I".

Posted by: Allerleirauh Sep 23 2005, 08:32 PM

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Sep 23 2005, 08:30 PM)

I thought the title of Diagna suggestive; "Orichalc God of the Sideways Blade" reminds me of "Sideways Wheel". Both form an "I".

Very nice.

Posted by: swrdphantom Sep 23 2005, 10:05 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 23 2005, 06:00 PM)

Interesting. This brings a thought to my head, in a minor study of Earthen mysticism, a meaning of the tarot card 'The Tower' is the need to build strong foundations. Perhaps rather than a physical construct, tower denotes all that is built on a foundation and reaches out (to Aetherius perhaps?). At this moment I am un-able to devise a worthy example.

Fascinating is the word that I should use, I'm keeping an eye on this Nu-Mantia Intercept.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 10:12 PM

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Sep 23 2005, 06:30 PM)

I thought the title of Diagna suggestive; "Orichalc God of the Sideways Blade" reminds me of "Sideways Wheel". Both form an "I".

In Christian symbolism, the sideways blade is a cross, or a "t." Unless you consider the blade's edge to be the side of a sword...

Posted by: Gren Sep 23 2005, 10:49 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 23 2005, 07:32 PM)

I don't see anything silly, tired, stupid, or ignorant in pointing this out. I was certainly pretty surprised when I read that the Brass God had a role yet to play in the downfall of the Empire.

I'm not quite convinced (yet) that the significance of any particular tower is in its having an upcoming role to play. We may not yet see the full import of its role in the past, and perhaps its significance--or its further significance--lies on an as-yet-seen horizon?

Now here is my possibly silly question: why might we consider the Orichalc to be Hammerfell (in Hammerfell? relating to Hammerfell) rather than Yokuda? I realize that Yokuda is 'destroyed'--but if we are speaking of origins, and Orichalc would be connected to the Ra-Gada, is there not the possibility that this tower is of Yokuda rather than Hammerfell?

While the lore we have is finite, there is so much we don't know--so many avenues of speculation.

***********

I am really such a neophyte in the Lore-halls that I must mention that I am, at any and all times, happily open to correction. The first rule of learning is not simply to listen, but to hear. I hope not to blunder too badly when I do speak up, and apologize if I become tiresome at any point.

I am grateful for this thread. I am waaaaay too intimidated to post anything in the Nu-Mantia thread.

EDIT: because I really do know the difference between "its" and "it's."

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 11:00 PM

QUOTE(Gren @ Sep 23 2005, 08:49 PM)

I suppose that "its role in the present danger to Emperor Actual" could refer to its past role in contributing to the present danger rather than its present role in the danger to the Empire, in which case it wouldn't have to have any role yet to play.

QUOTE(Gren @ Sep 23 2005, 08:49 PM)

I am grateful for this thread. I am waaaaay too intimidated to post anything in the Nu-Mantia thread.

Posted by: Miss Sep 24 2005, 01:42 AM

The real question is, has Nazz returned for good?

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 24 2005, 01:52 AM

QUOTE(Miss @ Sep 23 2005, 11:42 PM)

The real question is, has Nazz returned for good?

He's been back for a couple of weeks now. Besides, who'd miss the lore-forum buildup to Oblivion when they'd already witnessed the beginning of it?

Posted by: Sinder Velvin Sep 24 2005, 02:15 AM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 24 2005, 12:30 AM)

That second quote makes me think that maybe "orichalc" is the Yokudan word for Ebony.

I do not agree - "orichalc" exists in English. It's a metal that Atlanteans supposedly used.

Posted by: proweler Sep 24 2005, 03:10 AM

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 23 2005, 08:16 PM)

The Tower of White-Gold, whose Stone is Chim-el Adabal, Amulet of Kings, whose masters are returning. I speak of course of the Ayleids, for which "sometimes" was not good enough.

Interesting part. Could be read two fold. If the Tower is the whitegold tower, then it doesn't make sense, the amulet of kings came around later. If the Tower refers to Allesia, then how do the Ayleids make sense? Although they once were Allesia's masters, she was the slave qeeun after all.

All though that is kinda far fetched.

Posted by: Allerleirauh Sep 24 2005, 03:25 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 24 2005, 03:10 AM)

This would seem to indicate that the amulet of kings did not come around later at all, but was stolen by the humans when Alessia's people defeated the Ayleid.

Chim-el Adabal, I'm interested in breaking that name down.

Posted by: proweler Sep 24 2005, 03:48 AM

Eqaully far fetched, the amulet did not turn up until her death, wich happend long after the tower was taken.

Posted by: Allerleirauh Sep 24 2005, 04:04 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 24 2005, 03:48 AM)

Eqaully far fetched, the amulet did not turn up until her death, wich happend long after the tower was taken.

Who says?

You've already been told that the history books are wrong. And there's no information that I'm aware of about where the Amulet of Kings comes from, just when it was first used to house the spirit of a dead human Emperor.

Posted by: proweler Sep 24 2005, 04:25 AM

History never comes whit an editors cut, all the more directors cut's though. I wouldn't put to much weight on Nu-Hatta's words when entangeld in two fold meanings. They can't suport the weight of accusation.

In context it refers to something else, the origin of the first Man | Mer.

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 23 2005, 11:57 AM)

The Aldmer began to split along cultural lines, on how best to spread creation and their parts in it. Each Tower that was built exemplified a separate accordance.

This sundering of purpose is the myth of the "destruction of Aldmeris." Outside of the Dawn, and even then only in the dreamtime of its landscape, there was never a terrestrial homeland of the Elves. "Old Ehlnofey" is a magical ideal of mixed memories of the Dawn.

Do not believe the written histories.

All mortal life started on the starry heart of Dawn's beauty, Tamriel.

Posted by: Nazz Sep 24 2005, 07:34 AM

We really don't know anything substantial about the Ayleids except their creation myth. It doesn't seem too unlikely that the soul gem known as the Amulet of Kings is their creation. The empires of men have been very good at "borrowing" things from their enemies: Their gods, the current Imperial culture, Numidium. Why not the amulet as well?

And considering what the amulet does, it wouldn't need to be mentioned until after her death.

QUOTE

The real question is, has Nazz returned for good?

Wow, someone cares that I'm back. I'm quite flattered.

Posted by: Hasphat Antabolis Sep 24 2005, 07:45 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 24 2005, 04:48 AM)

Eqaully far fetched, the amulet did not turn up until her death, wich happend long after the tower was taken.

P-

You do not make yourself too clear. Forgive me if I misinterpret, but are you implying that the Amulet of Kings did not exist a priori to Alessia?

If not, forgive me.

If so, you are quite wrong.

From the timeline (apologies to the moth-priests who would have us blanketly dismiss them-- I wonder if they would if certain of elements contained therein supported their case):

"1E266 Shezarr, the missing sibling god of the Eight Divines, arrives at the White Gold Tower in the Imperial City and transforms the dying Alessia into the first of the Cyrodilic saints. Thus Empress Alessia becomes the first gem in the Cyrodilic Amulet of Kings. The Elder Council elects Belharza the Man-Bull as the second Emperor of Cyrodiil."

Emphasis my own, but let us not think that the Chim-el Adabal came after its "first gem".

Perhaps you are as confused by the wording above as I am by your chosen and somewhat suspect vernacular. Again, apologies if I mistake your intended target.

Posted by: B Sep 24 2005, 07:53 AM

The thoughts and discussions in this thread continue to get good. Even though I have nothing to add at this time, I must say that this excitement has captured my interest, too.

And for the record: I'm glad you're back, Nazz.

Posted by: proweler Sep 24 2005, 08:06 AM

Hasphat Antabolis,

That the Amulet of Kings did not exist a priori to Alessia is my suggestion yes.

1E266

Shezarr, the missing sibling god of the Eight Divines, arrives at the White Gold Tower in the Imperial City and transforms the dying Alessia into the first of the Cyrodiilic saints. Thus Empress Alessia becomes the first gem in the Cyrodiilic Amulet of Kings. The Elder Council elects Belharza the Man-Bull as the second Emperor of Cyrodiil.

Based on this I always imagined the Amulet of Kings to be a frame work for the first gem and those gems of emperors to come, rather then an item in its own right. Hence my conviction it did not exist prior to the creation of its first gem.

Although I could be wrong, things never turn out quite the way you imagine them.

Posted by: B Sep 24 2005, 08:26 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 24 2005, 09:06 AM)

. . . I always imagined the Amulet of Kings to be a frame work for the first gem and those gems of emperors to come, rather then an item in its own right. Hence my conviction it did not exist prior to the creation of its first gem.

QUOTE(Hasphat Antabolis @ Sep 24 2005, 08:45 AM)

Emphasis my own, but let us not think that the Chim-el Adabal came after its "first gem".

Yes, he is saying that Chim-el Adabal came before the first gem.

Posted by: B Sep 24 2005, 08:38 AM

So, it seems we are discussing 8 towers. The number 8 has had some importance in the past on Nirn, at least to the numerologists. Are there any more towers worth noting?

How does the Akulakhan fit into all of this? It seems to have been a failed attempt to house the First Stone. One could say that it was a failed attempt at another tower, but I do not think that is a new idea: It has been said before.

Posted by: proweler Sep 24 2005, 08:53 AM

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 23 2005, 05:09 AM)

Aldmeris bore witness and built the remaining towers during the Merethic: White-Gold, Crystal-like-Law, Orichalc, Green-Sap, Walk-Brass, Snow Throat, and on and on, "aad semblio impera."

Seems there are more then eight although these cover for the Alyeid's, Altmer, Orsimer(?), Bosmer, Dwemer and Falmer.

Aldmeris bore witness and built the remaining towers aad semblio impera, as in the image of the kings. Seems to hold connection to Auri-el's ascension.

Auri-El
(King of the Aldmer) The Elven Akatosh is Auri-El. Auri-El is the soul of Anui-El, who, in turn, is the soul of Anu the Everything. He is the chief of most Aldmeri pantheons. Most Altmeri and Bosmeri claim direct descent from Auri-El. In his only known moment of weakness, he agreed to take his part in the creation of the mortal plane, that act which forever sundered the Elves from the spirit worlds of eternity. To make up for it, Auri-El led the original Aldmer against the armies of Lorkhan in mythic times, vanquishing that tyrant and establishing the first kingdoms of the Altmer, Altmora and Old Ehlnofey. He then ascended to heaven in full observance of his followers so that they might learn the steps needed to escape the mortal plane.

Posted by: Arynel Sep 24 2005, 09:38 AM

It would not surprise me to find there was a link between physical towers and historical personages, though I do not know if this is the case. Much as a statue or other monument may be used to show honor or respect for a ruler, a tower may be built for a similar purpose. Of course, I tend to think physical towers are associated with the metaphysical tower, even if only in the bringing to physical form an archetypal ideal held throughout the empire.

Posted by: swrdphantom Sep 24 2005, 06:48 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 23 2005, 12:09 PM)

I gave some thought to this, and came up with a working theory that would include the Orsimer but exclude the Khajiit from the 'Towers' list.
The Khajiit were created by design, the Orcs by accident. Azura changed mer into Khajiit for her own purpose, while Boethiah most likely had no idea what would happen to Trinimac's people (or to himself) when he consumed Trinimac to take his form.
Since the Orsimer were an existing people, they would still be considered as they were (similar to the Chimer becoming the Dunmer).

This isn't a very good theory, even for a lore novice like myself, but it's all I have for now.

Posted by: Hasphat Antabolis Sep 24 2005, 10:05 PM

QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Sep 24 2005, 04:25 AM)

Chim-el Adabal, I'm interested in breaking that name down.

A-

It is my joy to help.

Chim: in this case, 'royalty'.
El: 'high'
Ada: 'spirit'
Bal: 'stone'

So, "the spirit stone of high royalty."

When the Amulet of Kings is called the Chim-el Adabal, it is never meant as a literal translation. Intent is key.

While it is, in a sense, a surrogate name, the speaker is instead using it when being especially reverent, referring to the amulet's ancient ties to the power of White-Gold Tower.

Yours,

Antabolis

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 24 2005, 10:37 PM

Thank you for that informative translation Antabolis.

Incidentally, may I enquire whether you finally managed to secure the Chair of Dwemer Studies? My studies rarely bring me into contact with the mainstream of Morrowind society and I may have missed your appointment.

Edit: My apologies for this IC interjection Azura's Star. I can't resist the opportunity to have a word in Hasphat's ear and I wouldn't want to disrupt the main IC thread with unrelated chit-chat.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 24 2005, 10:56 PM

QUOTE(Hasphat Antabolis @ Sep 24 2005, 08:05 PM)

Chim: in this case, 'royalty'.
El: 'high'
Ada: 'spirit'
Bal: 'stone'

So, "the spirit stone of high royalty."

It was my impression (quite possibly an incorrect one) that words in Ehlnofex didn't have "cases," that is, that when a word was used, all of its meanings were intended, and the phrase as a whole reflected all combinations of possible meanings. In this case, Chim-el Adabal would mean:

-"the spirit stone of high royalty"
-"the spirit stone of high starlight"
-"the spirit stone of high splendor" (I think we can leave out the redundant "high")

The first meaning is obvious, it is the Amulet of Kings (royalty=king). The second is somewhat more obscure, but may have to do with the concept of the "divine right of kings," by way of the stars as pathways to Aetherius. If the Chim-el Adabal represents the bridge to Aetherius, after all, then surely it represents the Aedric endorsement of Imperial rule. I won't even try to guess at the last meaning, because here I find myself rather low on inspiration, but I think that another might be able to help me on that one.

Now, on another subject...any speculation on the identity of this Ruma, or the father of Nu-Hatta (who apparently used "underking tactics")?

@Nigedo, No problem at all. I didn't really mean that everything had to be OOC, just that this was the thread for those posts which didn't quite belong in the other thread.

*edit* It has come to my attention that my response to Lord Antabolis' post has been interpreted by some as less than respectful, that is, a "dis." Let me assure all present that I did not intend it as such; I was merely asking for clarification on a piece of lore on which my knowledge was shaky. The comment remains unchanged, but please view it in the light of a humble request for information rather than a criticism. My apologies if anyone was offended .

Posted by: Nazz Sep 24 2005, 11:07 PM

EDIT: Never mind, I completely misread Ruma's post and I cant seem to delete this.

Posted by: adamant_2001 Sep 25 2005, 12:27 AM

One thing that strikes me funny is the "dis-creation" and "ritualistic anti-creations" of the Dwemer.

Could this be alluding to the fact that they denied the Psijiic Endeavor as familiar to us? (attaining the Tower)

As opposed to fulfilling PSJJJJ, the reason for the Arena, they resisted against it- their actions becoming "anti-creation?"

The question is how did they resist against it? Is it because the Dwemer wanted to use Numidium to become like the gods, which is the exact opposite of what one who wishes to attain PSJJJJ must do?

Did the Daedra/Chimer resist this because they were jealous? Or because they find it in their interest to see the true reason for the Arena fulfilled? Or are they, despite all of their power, slaves to PSJJJJ as well?

Posted by: Adanorcil Sep 25 2005, 05:53 AM

QUOTE(Hasphat Antabolis @ Sep 25 2005, 04:05 AM)

Your assistance is very much appreciated, Hasphat. If I had access to such superb sources as you have, my linguistic studies would be a lot easier.

Perhaps a small question then, mister Antabolis; feel free to answer or not. If "el" is translated as "high", is it related to the "ehl" in Ehlnofex?

QUOTE

This is a very interesting theory, I must ponder upon it for a while. I am under the impression that the phrases in the obscure language handed to us by Nu-Hatta are Ehlnofex as well.

Posted by: proweler Sep 25 2005, 06:13 AM

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=163171&view=findpost&p=2812866
The powers also created Red Tower and the First Stone. This allowed the Mundus to exist without the full presence of the divine. In this way, the powers of Ada-mantia granted the Mundus a special kind of divinity, which is called NIRN, the consequence of variable fate.

This should allow to settle the debate on the difference between Mundus and Nirn for once. I just don't know how.

Posted by: B Sep 25 2005, 06:42 AM

Thanks you, Hasphat.

The Adamantium Tower housed the Zero Stone, the First Stone called the Red Tower its home, and the White Gold Tower contained Chim-el Adabal. Are there other stones worth mentioning, or are they not applicable to this discussion?

Posted by: B Sep 25 2005, 06:48 AM

Also, to facilitate further discussion of the Towers, there are some who feel that the Adamantium Tower is some sort of vessel that came from the stars. Would you agree that the following quote by Nu-Hatta seems to confirm this belief?

Auriel-that-is-Akatosh returned to Mundex Arena from his dominion planet, signalling all Aedra to convene at a static meeting that would last outside of aurbic time. His sleek and silver vessel became a spike into the changing earth and the glimmerwinds of its impact warned any spirit that entered aura with it would become recorded-- that by consent of presence their actions here would last of a period unassailable, and would be so whatever might come later to these spirits, even if they rejoined the aether or succumbed willingly or by treachery to a sithite erasure. Thus could the Aedra and their cohorts truly covene in realness.

Posted by: proweler Sep 25 2005, 07:46 AM

QUOTE(MK @ Aug 7 2005, 07:21 PM)

Uh, say what?

I'm telling you there's been a rocketship in High Rock since we wrote the PGE.

Posted by: Nalion Sep 25 2005, 09:23 AM

There I am, gone for a few days busying myself with formulas of proper entry and then I see this, truly amazing.

I'm convinced that Nu-Mantia as well as the Loveletter will occupy many people and I'm anxious to see more.

Something that struck me is the notion that many towers that Nu-Hatta has mentioned have changed their proprietors over the ages, from merish to manish...
The most prominent one seems to be White-Gold Tower, which we all know was conquered by Alessia and which will, according to Nu-Hatta, play a role in the near future.

Another one would be Snow Throat, which is also revered by the Nords (High Hrothgar) and it seems to have been taken from the Falmer. Much disputed seemed to be Red Tower and the first Cornerstone, by the Dwemer and the Chimer/Dunmer, especially considering that latter held manish beliefs in contrast to their elven brethren. Well, and we all have a notion in what the Dwemer believed (or didn't believe).

Numidium, the Walk-Brass was in the posession of the Dunmer (after the Battle of Red Mountain), then later seemed to be a part of the deal between Vivec and Tiber Septim, thus as well changing into manish hands. A thought that occupies my mind for some time now is what has happened to Numidium after the events in the Iliac Bay.

A tower that I am myself unsure of would be Direnni Tower itself, while it is still held by the Direnni Clan, High Rock and its kingdoms may have influence.

QUOTE(B @ Sep 25 2005, 01:42 PM)

The first thing that came to my mind when reading this, B, was that Kagrenacs tools might be the cornerstone of the Walk-Brass...

Posted by: B Sep 25 2005, 10:51 AM

@proweler: I’m fully aware of what MK said. My point was to discuss this idea further. Most of us here in the Lore Forum, myself included, tend to be very dogmatic when it comes to information coming from certain sources. In the old days of Lore, it was said that just because one finds a quote to use as a source for an idea, that does not make that idea true (I forget who said it and what the term for it is). Far be it from me to call MK a liar; that isn’t what I’m saying. All I'm saying is that there seems to be additional evidence that might suggest that that particular tower may have come from the stars.

In terms of the denizens of Tamriel, if that tower fell from the sky, what does that mean, if anything?

Oh. . .never mind.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 25 2005, 11:05 AM

QUOTE(Sinder Velvin @ Sep 24 2005, 12:15 AM)

I do not agree - "orichalc" exists in English. It's a metal that Atlanteans supposedly used.

This just occurred to me:

Atlantis=fabled kingdom which sank into the sea.

Yokuda=fabled kingdom which sank into the sea.

Coincidence?

Posted by: Sinder Velvin Sep 25 2005, 11:20 AM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 25 2005, 06:05 PM)

This just occurred to me:

Atlantis=fabled kingdom which sank into the sea.

Yokuda=fabled kingdom which sank into the sea.

Coincidence?

I usually see more similarities between Atlanteans and Dwemer.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 25 2005, 11:26 AM

QUOTE(Sinder Velvin @ Sep 25 2005, 09:20 AM)

I usually see more similarities between Atlanteans and Dwemer.

They were punished for the classic hubris like any number of other people . I guess that the Dwemer were somewhat similar in that they mocked the gods and then something bad happened to them...

Posted by: kheros Sep 25 2005, 11:28 AM

QUOTE(Sinder Velvin @ Sep 25 2005, 05:20 PM)

I usually see more similarities between Atlanteans and Dwemer.

That don't acount for much. I always thought TES lore was made up of mixtures all sorts of 'earthly' lore. The Yokudan (and Redguard) culture seems heavily based on feudal Japan (samurai way of life and all), but the Redguards complexion is far from oriental. There are lots of other examples as well, I gues...

Posted by: Sinder Velvin Sep 25 2005, 11:29 AM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 25 2005, 06:26 PM)

They were punished for the classic hubris like any number of other people . I guess that the Dwemer were somewhat similar in that they mocked the gods and then something bad happened to them...

Both the Dwemer and the Atlanteans were very advanced, technologically. That's also what let to the disappearance of both.

Posted by: proweler Sep 25 2005, 11:38 AM

QUOTE(B @ Sep 25 2005, 11:51 AM)

I'm familiar whit the principle. At also means that just because you can find several qoutes doesn't make the argument any better. Wich is the real rub in this matter.
MK has written most of the lore on the Dawn Era but it apeared as sourceless or qeustionable information. Putting it in the mouth of Nu-Hatta who aperently is an unbiased outsider - unlike Vivec - suddenly validates most of the Vhekish and Monomythic Lore.
But what it really did was validating that it's MK's interpretation of the Lore. Even though he has acces to the desing documents, this is still his interpretation. If he then says there is a space ship, he's probebly right because he made the only aviable material to substantiate that claim after all.

I'd be nice to hear another dev.

Posted by: proweler Sep 25 2005, 11:45 AM

Yukodan culture has always been closer to Merish ideals then that of Man, just like the Dunmer are closer to Man then Mer. I wouldn't find the excistance of their tower to supricing. Hard to say though, the tower probebly went down whit the continent.

Posted by: Allerleirauh Sep 25 2005, 06:26 PM

Proweler, I think you're confused. The developer who creates lore does not "interpret" it. That's what fans do.

Also: there are 2 other devs participating in the Nu-Hatta thread at the moment, and one on this thread. You seem to be under the impression these people aren't capable of talking to each other.

Posted by: proweler Sep 25 2005, 06:53 PM

Don't the devs have to understand what another dev writes then? If so they are interpreting each others writing. Although there probably is a clear set of notes out there.

Apparently I'm making the wrong impression. I'm getting tired of Nu-Hatta's unmatched and apparently unquestionable level of expertise. It's like watching one of those "explanation" scenes from a cheap movie. Cheesy. Although it comes whit all sorts of fascinating detail to a somewhat blurry part of history, I'd like to hear something new.

I hope we get to the treat assessment fast.

Posted by: Arynel Sep 25 2005, 07:31 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 25 2005, 05:53 PM)

I quote Vehk from the Nu-Hatta thread, to the instigator himself.

Little gypsy,

Be careful.

His words have been noted, and he is being watched.

Posted by: proweler Sep 25 2005, 08:15 PM

So I noticed, but who are Ruma and Octato?

Ocato of Firsthold, High Chancellor of the Elder Council and Imperial Battlemage. Seems to be quite orthodox, not interested in Aldmeri theology or profecy. The typical battle mage and politician.

Ruma is unknow, seems just like a populistic shouter. Not worth the attention - although some might think differently. By the looks of it this won't become a scolary debate but a qeustioning of Nu-Hatta's integrity - at least if I understand Vehks words to Nigendo right.

Posted by: Miss Sep 25 2005, 09:13 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 25 2005, 05:15 PM)

Is this your first encounter with Ocato? I should hope not for someone of your knowledge of lore. Ocato is also the head of the Mages' Guild and assigned to protect the Emperor. He will undoubtedly play a part in Oblivion, either he dies at the beginning (I hope not) or he plays a major part in finding the heir.

Ruma is probably a character we haven't heard of yet. This thread, like the elder scrolls (as said within it), will make much more sense in retrospect.

QUOTE

Don't the devs have to understand what another dev writes then? If so they are interpreting each others writing. Although there probably is a clear set of notes out there.

I'd imagine that this is all orchastrated behind the scenes. It would seem like a bad idea for them to just go with the flow.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 26 2005, 01:34 AM

http://til.gamingsource.net/characters/daggerfall.shtml#ocato's the deal on Ocato. As for Ruma, I don't think anyone knows, yet, except for the devs.

As for the devs "interpreting" each other's lore, I'm pretty sure that in this case, they're all working from a unified body of knowledge, and that, when any one of them states something as fact, they are either correct or lying, rather than being accidentally incorrect. On the other hand, if we can believe http://til.gamingsource.net/interviews/douglasgoodall.shtml, this isn't always the case:

QUOTE(Doug Goodall)

Ken wrote a dozen different accounts, apparently without any personal preference to which, if any, was accurate, and ignored the contradictions.

If there is no absolute truth, how could any one of the devs know which version is true?

I'm not sure how much credence to give Mr. Goodall's words, however, so take them as you will. I also don't know how much things have changed since he worked for Bethesda.

Posted by: B Sep 26 2005, 05:06 AM

If Ocato does make an appearance in the next game, I'll be curious to see if he looks anything like he did in http://til.gamingsource.net/intros/daggerfall_intro.shtml. I know the Emperor has changed.

Posted by: Gren Sep 26 2005, 06:04 AM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 26 2005, 01:34 AM)

QUOTE(Doug Goodall)

Ken wrote a dozen different accounts, apparently without any personal preference to which, if any, was accurate, and ignored the contradictions.

If there is no absolute truth, how could any one of the devs know which version is true?

I'm going to guess that the instances where more than one account exists for a particular event are limited and specifically chosen. That there should be an array of differing accounts of the Battle of Red Mountain / the demise of Nevervar (which is, if I remember correctly, what was being refered to in the above quote) makes a great deal of sense; likewise for events such as the Dragon Break. But I'd think it's a great deal more than likely that for a sizeable amount of material, the devs are working from an 'authoritative text,' and that a lot of what they produce and co-produce in the forums is (in my opinion) almost certainly orchestrated--at least to a large degree. That deviations among differing accounts are scripted behind the scenes before we see them is also pretty likely. Otherwise, they would be creating headaches for themselves later on.

Posted by: Eralion Sethos Sep 26 2005, 08:57 AM

I'm curious as to what mantia means. We have ada - spirit, so Ada-Mantia means spirit something.

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 26 2005, 11:26 AM

QUOTE(Eralion Sethos @ Sep 26 2005, 01:57 PM)

I'm curious as to what mantia means. We have ada - spirit, so Ada-Mantia means spirit something.

I think the jury's still out on this one. There is information there, but its not clear enough yet, at least not to me.

Some ideas, though, might be "tower", "death" or "change", or perhaps all three.

Edit: "Tower" here in the sense of permanence. I think that might be pretty close unless I'm on some wild and off-road track.

Posted by: B Sep 26 2005, 11:46 AM

In the http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=158245 it says, "Lull calls this a refutation of sorts, but the wise may know it as the first appearance of Nu-Mantia, which is Liberty. Rather, the road to Liberty."

It could be "road" or "liberty". Perhaps Ada-Mantia means "Spirit Road". I don't know if that's the case, though.

Posted by: Solin Sep 26 2005, 12:07 PM

QUOTE(B @ Sep 26 2005, 11:46 AM)

Hmmm...

Well, what is the Adamantine Tower? What could mantia stem from? Mantle?

Posted by: B Sep 26 2005, 12:13 PM

QUOTE(Solin @ Sep 26 2005, 01:07 PM)

Hmmm...

Well, what is the Adamantine Tower? What could mantia stem from? Mantle?

Mantle. . . I like that, too.

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 26 2005, 12:18 PM

QUOTE(B @ Sep 26 2005, 04:46 PM)

Yes, the context of that seems to be death though. Either in the sense of Oblivion being the echo of the Void, or Mortal Death being the echo of Oblivion, as in;

AE CHIM NU-MEN NU-MANTIA

Mundus to Mortal Death: centerpoint to the soon recycled.

The tower Ada-Mantia seems to represent the fixed point of the Ada's transition to Earthbone. In this context, it may be Ada-transition-point or death or change. As you say "road" which implies transition or change by a fixed conduit. We can expand to see how "mortal death" is the "road to liberty".

Posted by: B Sep 26 2005, 12:24 PM

Yes, I see what you are saying, Nigedo.

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 26 2005, 12:32 PM

QUOTE(B @ Sep 26 2005, 05:24 PM)

Yes, I see what you are saying, Nigedo.

Oh, I'm glad at least one of us does.

Posted by: B Sep 26 2005, 12:42 PM

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Sep 26 2005, 01:32 PM)

Oh, I'm glad at least one of us does.

Your idea of "mortal death" leading to the "road to liberty" reminds me of some of the Psijic Order's view on our ancestors. I will have to research all of that a little more. There may be no connection whatsoever. I would love to hear what Loremaster Celarus has to say on these matters (hint, hint).

Or I wouldn't be surprised to find each group calling the other "wrong-headed". . . The whole Psijic Endeavor does not equal the Psijic Order. There might be just as much in common with Necromancy.

Posted by: Sheogorath Sep 26 2005, 01:04 PM

QUOTE(Solin @ Sep 26 2005, 01:07 PM)

Hmmm...

Well, what is the Adamantine Tower? What could mantia stem from? Mantle?

You're quite a clever fellow
You never bluster nor bellow
Fortune's flux
Hangs in a crux
Of mantling a mantella

Posted by: proweler Sep 26 2005, 01:05 PM

QUOTE

AE CHIM NU-MEN NU-MANTIA

Mundus to Mortal Death

Ada-Mantia Spirit-Transformation to Death

Nu-Mantia Mortal-Transformation to Death

Nu-Men Mortal-?
Nu-Hatta Mortal-?

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 26 2005, 02:10 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 26 2005, 06:05 PM)

Ada-Mantia Spirit-Transformation to Death

Nu-Mantia Mortal-Transformation to Death

Yes, I would guard against getting too fixed to this interpretation though. The meaning of mantia may be broader than "transformation through death". But it serves us until we have more context.

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 26 2005, 06:05 PM)

Nu-Men Mortal-?

I would hazard "plane" or "state" or "condition".

Hence:-

AE CHIM NU-MEN NU-MANTIA

approximates to:-

by [through] the royal [changing?] mortal state to mortal transition [death/new man*]

*this being the choice in transition

Posted by: Allerleirauh Sep 26 2005, 05:40 PM

Unless I am very much mistaken, mant- does not mean death. For the various usages I've seen, it would appear to be a verb: to wear. As in "the Divine Skin."

However, I have been known to be mistaken about such things.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 26 2005, 06:03 PM

If we assume that the root "mant" means not only death, but that specific death which leads to the road to liberty, then http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/nu-hatta.shtml begin to make a little more sense to me...

Circumstantial evidence only, though, and dependent on the (generally flawed) assumption that I'm not talking out of my with regards to interpreting Nu-Hatta.

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 26 2005, 06:26 PM

QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Sep 26 2005, 10:40 PM)

Unless I am very much mistaken, mant- does not mean death. For the various usages I've seen, it would appear to be a verb: to wear. As in "the Divine Skin."

Yes, I didn't mean to put so much emphasis on death. It is just that death seems to be how the world at large interprets great change. You may be altogether right Alli. Doesn't that wearing always seem to point towards change though? It seems to imply some "becoming" through wearing?

I was pretty convinced, at one point, that the affix "ium" (in Orsin-ium Anumid-ium and Adamant-ium) translates consistently as "metal", as it does in RL. But I'm not sure now.

Then again, I suppose we could work from this idea that:-

Ada-mant-ium = spirit-garment [vehicle, point of transition]-of metal

"Nu" in Numidium may be abbreviated "Anu" and so the name of that divine pole, or a stem representing divinity (and/or stasis, perhaps). I have attempted to use this to translate the term Anu-midium before now. I got as far as divine-metal (one?) (which fits well with the common name "Brass God").

Following this direction:-

Nu-Mantia = divine-garment [vehicle, point of transition] perhaps?

Of course, this gives us completely contradictory ideas of what "Nu" may mean; mortal or divine.

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 26 2005, 06:32 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 26 2005, 11:03 PM)

Circumstantial evidence only, though, and dependent on the (generally flawed) assumption that I'm not talking out of my with regards to interpreting Nu-Hatta.

What makes you think we would notice if you were?

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 26 2005, 07:00 PM

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Sep 26 2005, 04:32 PM)

What makes you think we would notice if you were?

Eh? Did I say I thought anyone would notice?

I was trying to make the point that the fact that Nu-Hatta's words started to make more sense to me was only relevant if we assume that I'm right about the meaning of Nu-Hatta's words, and I'm not at all confident that I am.

Anyway, my thought was that mant was a verb (as used http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/nu-hatta.shtml, which I previously thought was a typo). Mantia would then be the state of being associated with that verb (as "absentia" relates to the reflexive verb "to absent oneself"). This would also work if we could find a case of mant being used as an adjective (as "inertia" relates to the English adjective "inert"). Either way, mantia is the state of being related to the root mant.

If mant refers to a garment, mantia might be something along the lines of "clothedness," Nu-Mantia being the state of being clothed in (read: inundated with) divinity/mortality. If mant refers to the death on the way to liberty, then Nu-Mantia would be the state of being dead but unerased.

With yet a third interpretation, we can take the phonetic approach. After all, the best place to look for hidden meaning in MK's work (or so I've been told) is in plain sight. In this last case, Nu-Mantia means just what it seems to in the http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=158245: New Manhood.

On a related topic...did anyone else find MK's description of Nu-Mantia not the least bit appealing? I find the idea of wallowing in one's own existence for all (timeless) eternity, without external (the word becomes meaningless) input absolutely terrifying.

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 26 2005, 07:34 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 27 2005, 12:00 AM)

I was trying to make the point that the fact that Nu-Hatta's words started to make more sense to me was only relevant if we assume that I'm right about the meaning of Nu-Hatta's words, and I'm not at all confident that I am.

And I observed that we would be unlikely to know whether you are or not.

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 27 2005, 12:00 AM)

On a related topic...did anyone else find MK's description of Nu-Mantia not the least bit appealing? I find the idea of wallowing in one's own existence for all (timeless) eternity, without external (the word becomes meaningless) input absolutely terrifying.

Yes, I mentioned this to him. He pointed out that I was wrong-headed and unlikely to achieve CHIM.

Posted by: Arynel Sep 26 2005, 07:37 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 26 2005, 06:00 PM)

This would be the negative aspect of the plan, loneliness. Perhaps it is up to us, mortals, to decide whether the prize is worth the price.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 26 2005, 07:38 PM

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Sep 26 2005, 05:34 PM)

Yes, I mentioned this to him. He pointed out that I was wrong-headed and unlikely to achieve CHIM.

Ah. Well, I'll just go wallow in my CHIM-lessness until I feel better, then, shall I ?

*edit*

QUOTE(Arynel @ Sep 26 2005, 05:37 PM)

This would be the negative aspect of the plan, loneliness. Perhaps it is up to us, mortals, to decide whether the prize is worth the price.

What's the positive side, though? Aside from not having to put up with people you don't like, of course .

Posted by: Arynel Sep 26 2005, 07:44 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 26 2005, 06:38 PM)

What's the positive side, though? Aside from not having to put up with people you don't like, of course .

As the writer of the letter has indicated.

QUOTE

Those who do not fail become the New Men: an individual beyond all AE, unerased and all-being. Jumping beyond the last bridge of all existence is the Last Existence, The Eternal I.

I AM.

A whole World of You.

God.

God outside of all else but his own free consciousness, hallucinating for eternity and falling into love: I AM AND I ARE ALL WE.

C0DA Digitals have confirmed that a subject in sensory deprivation begins to hallucinate after only twenty minutes. Scale unto this along the magical spectrum and maintenance of time, which is forever, and you begin to see the Lunar God’s failure as Greatest Gift. As above, “This is the love of God.”

Why Love?

Know Love to avoid the Landfall, my brothers and sisters of the past.

The New Man becomes God becomes Amaranth, everlasting hypnogogic. Hallucinations become lucid under His eye and therefore, like all parents of their children, the Amaranth cherishes and adores all that is come from Him.

I ARE ALL WE.

God is Love.

COME TO THE HOUSE OF WE.

God is Love.

ONE WORLD IN SPIRIT I AM.

God is Love.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 26 2005, 08:02 PM

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. That loss of lucidity and the resultant artificial lucidity which one creates for oneself are among the most terrifying concepts that I can begin to comprehend. Sensory deprivation is commonly referred to as a method of torture, remember.

I may have just had an epiphany on the subject, however. When you mentioned loneliness, and I started to imagine a universe in which I and I alone defined existence, one of the things I thought of was a log of how I think my thoughts would run, should I ever be in such a situation. Not too far down the line, I came to "Hello? Is anyone out there?"

My question: Is it possible that this instinctive questing for "other" is what originally led the primal Is force to create the Is Not counterpart? In which case, could the beginning of any universe (within the TES theoretical framework) be the interplay between a lonely individual who has achieved CHIM and the counterpart that the individual has hallucinated for himself?

Posted by: Nazz Sep 26 2005, 08:08 PM

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Sep 26 2005, 07:26 PM)

Ada-mant-ium = spirit-garment [vehicle, point of transition]-of metal

Well it is apparently a big honking metallic space ship from Aetherius.

Posted by: B Sep 26 2005, 08:11 PM

I guess we're all just someone's hallucinations.

Posted by: Marlo LaCroa Sep 26 2005, 08:16 PM

QUOTE(Nazz @ Sep 26 2005, 09:08 PM)

Well it is apparently a big honking metallic space ship from Aetherius.

Who could build such a ship? The Ancestors/Earth Bones to go to the Mundus and make the foundations? Such as Y'frre(the Bosmer diety fellow)?

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 26 2005, 08:19 PM

QUOTE(B @ Sep 26 2005, 06:11 PM)

I guess we're all just someone's hallucinations.

Yay for solipsism! Not only that, but externally focused solipsism, the least viable philosophical standpoint ever!

Seriously, though, if I'm right, we have to assume that the power which appears to come with CHIM grants some measure of reality to the hallucinations of the principal being (the Is force).

*edit* Well, okay, if you insist, MK .

Posted by: MK Sep 26 2005, 09:17 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 26 2005, 09:19 PM)

Yay for solopsism! Not only that, but externally focused solopsism, the least viable philosophical standpoint ever!

It's "solipsism", but bravo.

However, add magic and the Godhead and then let us talk of viability.

Posted by: Draak Sep 26 2005, 09:38 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Sep 26 2005, 09:17 PM)

It's "solipsism", but bravo.

However, add magic and the Godhead and then let us talk of viability.

I knew it....... Nirn is just a VR program gone haywire. Once the computer on the ship is repaired were all gonners..... *sniff*

Posted by: Gren Sep 26 2005, 09:42 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 26 2005, 08:19 PM)

Seriously, though, if I'm right, we have to assume that the power which appears to come with CHIM grants some measure of reality to the hallucinations of the principal being (the Is force).

This is, essentially, what all writers/artsists do. It's not quite 'art' until it breathes on its own (the hallcination, story, whatever). And so we thus again are staring into the face of the poet. Or the developer. Or SHIVA, programmer of worlds. Whatever.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 26 2005, 11:10 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Sep 26 2005, 07:17 PM)

It's "solipsism", but bravo.

However, add magic and the Godhead and then let us talk of viability.

Why, so it is. That's what you get for assuming that roots go unchanged into larger words.

Thanks for the kudos .

Magic: I'm stumped on how this one works in any differently from the rest of the interplay which produces reality. Come, all ye speculators, heed my call!

Godhead: Simply, godhood. Also, the trio of gods (on Earth, the Holy Trinity, on Nirn, the Tribunal) and/or their essential natures. This term has been used in reference to the Psijic Endeavor. I would guess that it refers to the endeavor itself; that is, the "essential nature" of the Tribunal is that they attempted to reach CHIM, and this endeavor was what defined them more than anything else during their tenure as deities. I'm not sure how this relates to the discussion at hand, though...

@Draak, I've said it before and I'll say it again: TES V and Fallout 3 are going to be the same game .

@Gren, Absolutely true, but I've generally tried to avoid finding self-referential themes in TES lore. That doesn't mean they're not there, but I feel they somehow cheapen the body as a whole, and tend to ruin my suspension of disbelief. That's just my personal bias, though.

Posted by: Arynel Sep 26 2005, 11:12 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 26 2005, 10:10 PM)

Magic: I'm stumped on how this one works in any differently from the rest of the interplay which produces reality. Come, all ye speculators, heed my call!

Magic is what allows the normally impossible to be true.

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 26 2005, 10:10 PM)

Godhead: Simply, godhood. Also. the trio of gods (on Earth, the Holy Trinity, on Nirn, the Tribunal) and/or their essential natures. This term has been used in reference to the Psijic Endeavor. I would guess that it refers to the endeavor itself; that is, the "essential nature" of the Tribunal is that they attempted to reach CHIM, and this endeavor was what defined them more than anything else during their tenure as deities. I'm not sure how this relates to the discussion at hand, though...

God is love...

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 26 2005, 11:16 PM

QUOTE(Arynel @ Sep 26 2005, 09:12 PM)

Magic is what allows the normally impossible to be true.

Magic, then, being the force which gives the hallucinations their measure of reality?

QUOTE(Arynel @ Sep 26 2005, 09:12 PM)

God is love...

And, I suppose, love is what one is truly seeking when one is lonely.

Posted by: Arynel Sep 26 2005, 11:19 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 26 2005, 10:16 PM)

Magic, then, being the force which gives the hallucinations their measure of reality?

Through magic, the hallucinations are no longer illusions.

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 26 2005, 10:16 PM)

And, I suppose, love is what one is truly seeking when one is lonely.

It is the scripture of love, after all.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 26 2005, 11:32 PM

QUOTE(Arynel @ Sep 26 2005, 09:19 PM)

It is the scripture of love, after all.

And I see that this information was all to be found in http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#35 (albeit in a somewhat less accessible form, since I never figured it out) the whole time...

Thanks for the hints, by the way .

*edit* All fixed.

Posted by: Eralion Sethos Sep 27 2005, 01:00 AM

To skip back to the towers, orichalc was apparently a golden or copper-colored metal, possibly brass.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 27 2005, 01:05 AM

QUOTE(Eralion Sethos @ Sep 26 2005, 11:00 PM)

To skip back to the towers, orichalc was apparently a golden or copper-colored metal, possibly brass.

Well, I guess everything tall and mystical is made of bloody brass, isn't it ?

Posted by: B Sep 27 2005, 05:00 AM

Thank you, Azura's Star, for putting a term to what I was thinking. I had a feeling I was on the right track. This is getting interesting.

Posted by: B Sep 27 2005, 05:15 AM

QUOTE(MK @ Sep 26 2005, 10:17 PM)

It's "solipsism", but bravo.

However, add magic and the Godhead and then let us talk of viability.

Are we talking about projecting internal hallucations outward, or does everything remain inside the Amaranth?

If a certain subject is the one undergoing sensory deprivation and that subject enters hypnagogic hallucinations, then, via magic, that subject could become the Godhead. Then again, true magic may not even be necessary. In the mind of the subject, anything could be possible.

Posted by: Gren Sep 27 2005, 06:19 AM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 26 2005, 11:10 PM)

@Gren, Absolutely true, but I've generally tried to avoid finding self-referential themes in TES lore. That doesn't mean they're not there, but I feel they somehow cheapen the body as a whole, and tend to ruin my suspension of disbelief. That's just my personal bias, though.

I completely understand, and I suppose the reason why it doesn't bother me is that I approach it from the other direction: stories=life=stories; it isn't so much the game making reference to life (for me) so much as both/either pointing to the fact that 'reality' is a story we tell ourselves in order to make sense of our experiences. One can embrace that perspective from inside any world without breaking its shell (in my opinion).

When you have 'ascended' in any sense, the scope of the narration changes--and if you're Vivec sitting in his palace you can call it 'juggling' if you like*, or if you are at an order of divinity that exists in a state like unto a person in a sensory deprivation tank hallucinating--it's still a matter of ordering or comprehending (that last term in its fullest sense): creation by the artist (any artist, in or outside Mundus/Nirn) and creation by the gods is not dissimilar in kind, but degree.

Again, this is how I make sense of it.

______________

*Can I say that without seeming too flippant?

Posted by: Allerleirauh Sep 27 2005, 06:40 AM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 26 2005, 11:10 PM)

Don't see why self-reference would "cheapen" the religious system; plenty of real-world religions state essentially the same thing. Hmm... actually, let me be more specific: every major real world religion I can think of, without exception, says that there is a reality that is more "real" than the everyday world.

Posted by: adamant_2001 Sep 27 2005, 05:47 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Sep 26 2005, 10:17 PM)

It's "solipsism", but bravo.

However, add magic and the Godhead and then let us talk of viability.

With the godhead it breaks down to I and Other. Magic being the interaction between them?

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 27 2005, 11:54 PM

QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Sep 27 2005, 04:40 AM)

That's true, and relevant. I'm not saying that my bias is correct, nor do I imply it's particularly logical. It's simply that I've never been able to continue taking a work of fiction seriously after coming across a character who appears to realize that he's part of a work of fiction. It's the same for games, and the same for the kind of fictional universe that's been created around the TES games.

With regards to your analogy, I've never been able to take any kind of real-world religion or spirituality seriously, either. Maybe this is why.

Posted by: Allerleirauh Sep 28 2005, 12:12 AM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 27 2005, 11:54 PM)

So, just out of curiousity, do you find it any easier to take yourself seriously, believing that you are a series of physical events determined by the pattern of the neurons firing in your brain, which was in turn determined by a reaction to other physical events, and so on, all the way back? Scott Adams did a Dilbert strip about this recently. You may be right - but if you are, it's ironic to think of one result of the universe's unfolding not taking another result of the universe's unfolding seriously.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 28 2005, 12:36 AM

QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Sep 27 2005, 10:12 PM)

I never take myself seriously. It's nearly always a poor idea. It can lead to depression, lack of friends, and the tendency to write confessional poetry.

As for "one result of the universe's unfolding not taking another result of the universe's unfolding seriously," you're right that, at a purely objective level, if one believes that one is fundamentally no different from any other object in the universe, the idea of dismissing certain pieces of literature because they are self-referential (or dismissing anything for any reason, really) becomes absurd.

On the other hand, the logical conclusion of this viewpoint is that morality is bogus, that there is no reason for anyone to ever do anything, and that nothing has any meaning at all. This kind of viewpoint is very depressing. It also leads to things like homicidal mania.

Therefore, I try to shy away from this kind of thinking, if for no other reason than because I enjoy life more when I do so. I call this "pragmatism." Another common term is "moral cowardice." You might also bring up "internal inconsistency." This, I understand, is why some people find religion something of a comfort.

Posted by: Allerleirauh Sep 28 2005, 01:06 AM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 28 2005, 12:36 AM)

Touche.

Posted by: Quende Sep 28 2005, 02:49 AM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 28 2005, 12:36 AM)

I never take myself seriously. It's nearly always a poor idea. It can lead to depression, lack of friends, and the tendency to write confessional poetry.

That is one of the most insightful sentences I've read in this forum. Sadly I somewhat fitted that description a few years back. But back to topic and the perceiving of the world or illusion of Mundus. This is a very interesting tread to follow along with the dev treads. Enigmas and non constant truths fascinate me, even though I seem to understand little of it.

Posted by: B Sep 28 2005, 09:57 AM

From http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/on_artaeum.shtml, "The Ceporah Tower, which is a relic from a civilization that predates the High Elves by several hundred years, is still used in certain rites by the Psijics."

I wonder if the Ceporah Tower is a Tower. Does it have a Stone? If so, is the Ceporah Tower what gives the Isle of Artaeum its ability to shift "continuously either at random or by decree of the Council"?

Posted by: Adanorcil Sep 28 2005, 10:19 AM

A kind of "smaller" Tower perhaps? And if we follow the path of the towers in the metaphysical sense, who achieved godhood for it?

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 28 2005, 10:24 AM

QUOTE(B @ Sep 28 2005, 02:57 PM)

Nice find B.

Posted by: Draak Sep 28 2005, 10:39 AM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 28 2005, 12:36 AM)

Being the Empirical Agnostic that I am.... I like so relate to that. Hehe

Now if I can just make it though this phase I'm in without killing anyone I'll be just fine....... until next time

On the other hand......... um not going there........ forget it.

Posted by: Marlo LaCroa Sep 28 2005, 02:30 PM

Agh, I hate to go off topic from our off-topicness, but someone known as Yagrum Bagarn(seems MK-ish) posted this:

QUOTE(Yagrum Bagarn)

To the caretakers of the Imperial Library
(can the wise consider this letter as a gift)

0: the Error of the sage:
in the certainty there isn’t discovery,
in the discovery lies the knowledge.

0: the Error of the skeptic:
in the uncertainty there isn’t knowledge,
nothing can be built without a solid pillar.

0: the Error of the cautious:
all the roads can carry to the Error,
but not to choose is a greater Error.

Perhaps also the Brass-God is an Error:
the Error of the pride.

Sure a new type of 0 has yet to be discovered.

These words are the Error,
other I’ll not say.

Yagrum Bagrn,
Once-a-Dwemer

Seems to be talking about the Numidium and Dwemer mathematics...

Posted by: MK Sep 28 2005, 03:44 PM

Ain't me.

Posted by: B Sep 28 2005, 06:16 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Sep 28 2005, 04:44 PM)

Ain't me.

I was thinking Gary.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 28 2005, 11:15 PM

QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Sep 27 2005, 11:06 PM)

Touche.

QUOTE(Quende @ Sep 28 2005, 12:49 AM)

That is one of the most insightful sentences I've read in this forum. Sadly I somewhat fitted that description a few years back.

QUOTE(Draak @ Sep 28 2005, 08:39 AM)

I don't know whether I'm more scared that someone found that insightful, or that someone relates to it. I just know a good opprotunity for a dig at the Suicide Sisters when I see one .

On topic: That post by Yagrum reminds me a lot of MK's Loveletter and the C0DA. I guess it's not his work, but I wonder if there's some common inspiration to be found for the two pieces. Of course, maybe they only strike me as similar because they both use 0's for no discernable reason.

Posted by: VXSS Sep 29 2005, 01:11 AM

QUOTE(B @ Sep 28 2005, 07:16 PM)

I was thinking Gary.

Nope, I'm not a riddle talker and I generally avoid extreme pre-dated lore.

Posted by: Eralion Sethos Sep 29 2005, 01:34 AM

It is a dev, though? It would be extremely amusing if it weren't.

Posted by: Solin Sep 29 2005, 01:40 AM

QUOTE(Marlo LaCroa @ Sep 28 2005, 02:30 PM)

Agh, I hate to go off topic from our off-topicness, but someone known as Yagrum Bagarn(seems MK-ish) posted this:

Seems to be talking about the Numidium and Dwemer mathematics...

As to that, some might be interested in http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/type_of_zero.shtml.

Posted by: MK Sep 29 2005, 03:06 AM

QUOTE(Solin @ Sep 29 2005, 02:40 AM)

As to that, some might be interested in http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/type_of_zero.shtml.

Okay, so that one was me.

Posted by: B Sep 29 2005, 05:03 AM

QUOTE(VXSS @ Sep 29 2005, 02:11 AM)

Nope, I'm not a riddle talker and I generally avoid extreme pre-dated lore.

Well, I was wrong on that one. I'll keep my next guess to myself. All that matters is that it came from Yagrum Bagarn.

I wonder if we are going to hear anything else from Nu-Hatta.

Posted by: Marlo LaCroa Sep 29 2005, 06:26 AM

QUOTE(Solin @ Sep 29 2005, 02:40 AM)

As to that, some might be interested in http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/type_of_zero.shtml.

Yep, that's where I went after readong this.

QUOTE(MK @ Sep 29 2005, 04:06 AM)

Okay, so that one was me.

Heheh that's where my guess was from.

QUOTE(B @ Sep 29 2005, 06:03 AM)

Well, I was wrong on that one. I'll keep my next guess to myself. All that matters is that it came from Yagrum Bagarn.

I wonder if we are going to hear anything else from Nu-Hatta.

Mr. daM doG then?

Posted by: Dumbkid Sep 29 2005, 07:34 AM

QUOTE(Marlo LaCroa @ Sep 29 2005, 07:26 AM)

Mr. daM doG then?

That's really not his usual style.

QUOTE( B )

I wonder if we are going to hear anything else from Nu-Hatta.

I would think so, the exchange of information between Nu-Hatta and Ocato seems incomplete, though I fear we may have scared him off.

Posted by: B Sep 29 2005, 07:48 AM

QUOTE(Dumbkid @ Sep 29 2005, 08:34 AM)

QUOTE( B )

I wonder if we are going to hear anything else from Nu-Hatta.

I would think so, the exchange of information between Nu-Hatta and Ocato seems incomplete, though I fear we may have scared him off.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Posted by: Marlo LaCroa Sep 29 2005, 02:25 PM

QUOTE(Dumbkid @ Sep 29 2005, 08:34 AM)

That's really not his usual style.

QUOTE( B )

I wonder if we are going to hear anything else from Nu-Hatta.

I would think so, the exchange of information between Nu-Hatta and Ocato seems incomplete, though I fear we may have scared him off.

If not Noonan or MK then who?

Oh noes! We might be headed the Xal and Gosleigh letters again!

Posted by: Homru Sep 29 2005, 02:50 PM

I think Yagrum Bagarn is Ken Rolston. Yagrum Bagarn was in the Dwem, little dwemer of me thread back before Tribunal was released.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 29 2005, 08:31 PM

QUOTE(B @ Sep 29 2005, 03:03 AM)

I wonder if we are going to hear anything else from Nu-Hatta.

I very much hope so. They're not done !

Yagrum Bagarn? I don't really know. I wouldn't guess Tedders, since he tends to be either quite direct (most of his writing, which I appreciate) or completely nonsensical (the daM doG). It sort of reminds me of Doug, but I'm sure he's not back and contributing to the body of lore.

Posted by: VXSS Sep 29 2005, 09:09 PM

On the old forums, I had Yagrum Bagarn as a nick as well, but I never verified ot on the new forums. Maybe the account expired after all that time. Dunno. Aint me though.

Posted by: Chases-His-Tail Sep 29 2005, 09:13 PM

Can we have some more lore please?

Posted by: Bloodthirsty Crustacean Sep 30 2005, 01:24 PM

Don't know whether this is the relevant thread for Oblivion (the game) Lore/Plot Speculation, but it looks right. If I'm posting this in the wrong place, please ignore me.

Just wondering what you lore people think of the Oblivion bad guy, described in a press release today as "a very thoughtful man from a different line of kings who seeks to realize his own vision for the empire" and "a sinister force bent on the destruction of Tamriel".

Any mentions in the lore to a 'different line of kings', or who this character might be?

Thanks for any insight.

Posted by: proweler Sep 30 2005, 02:09 PM

Where did you read that?

Posted by: WKinkade Sep 30 2005, 02:18 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 30 2005, 03:09 PM)

Where did you read that?

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=166428

Posted by: adamant_2001 Sep 30 2005, 04:34 PM

QUOTE(Bloodthirsty Crustacean @ Sep 30 2005, 02:24 PM)

Any mentions in the lore to a 'different line of kings', or who this character might be?

As mentioned by Astarsis in Morrowind General, the Camoran Dynasty seems to fit as a culprit.

My speculation is that if the Mythic Dawn indeed consists of humans and not Elves the current villain could be a descendant of Andorak who could well have been the Camoran Usurper.

Posted by: proweler Sep 30 2005, 05:57 PM

Just a minor pothole in the road. The Usurper has been defeated already.

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 30 2005, 07:23 PM

Have we all got our cubleing boots on?

Posted by: B Sep 30 2005, 10:51 PM

To cuble, or not to cuble: that is the question.

Posted by: adamant_2001 Sep 30 2005, 11:08 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 30 2005, 06:57 PM)

Just a minor pothole in the road. The Usurper has been defeated already.

Though the Usurper may have been defeated, his scion may yet live on.

Posted by: Marlo LaCroa Sep 30 2005, 11:28 PM

Did anyone else get a strange PM from "Annex of Dwemeri Documents?" It said something along the lines of "testing my knowledge." It was strange and exciting at the same time. This series of events could become very important, very soon.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 30 2005, 11:48 PM

QUOTE(Marlo LaCroa @ Sep 30 2005, 09:28 PM)

Whoah...no, I didn't get any PM, but I saw his post http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=165650&view=findpost&p=2871708. I'm thinking it's not a dev, but I'm not really sure.

Posted by: Marlo LaCroa Sep 30 2005, 11:53 PM

Yes, 'twas from that poster. I hope I didn't mess up anything by saying this out here in the Forum...

Posted by: Nigedo Oct 1 2005, 01:14 AM

QUOTE(Marlo LaCroa @ Oct 1 2005, 04:28 AM)

This series of events could become very important, very soon.

Or not, perhaps.

Posted by: B Oct 1 2005, 08:06 AM

QUOTE(Marlo LaCroa @ Oct 1 2005, 12:53 AM)

Yes, 'twas from that poster. I hope I didn't mess up anything by saying this out here in the Forum...

No, I didn't get any strange PMs from the Annex.

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Oct 1 2005, 02:14 AM)

Or not, perhaps.

Yes, I guess we'll just wait and see.

Posted by: proweler Oct 1 2005, 09:49 AM

Might be nice if pepole stopped making random acounts.

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Sep 30 2005, 08:23 PM)

Have we all got our cubleing boots on?

What?

Posted by: B Oct 1 2005, 09:52 AM

2=C
20=U
1=B
11=L
4=E

cuble

Posted by: Marlo LaCroa Oct 1 2005, 09:56 AM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Oct 1 2005, 12:48 AM)

Whoah...no, I didn't get any PM, but I saw his post http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=165650&view=findpost&p=2871708. I'm thinking it's not a dev, but I'm not really sure.

QUOTE(B @ Oct 1 2005, 09:06 AM)

No, I didn't get any strange PMs from the Annex.

Mhmm. I'm sounding like I'm lying now arn't I? I now know what the people who were abducted by aliens feel like...

Back to the original Out of Characterness. The Loveletter of the Fifth Era hasn't received much attention, probably do to the Vehkish writing of it. The part that confuses me most is the "The C0DA broke when Twice Vehk appeared again from Aether, but they captured enough of Him to render the words stable again. In this passage, He describes the goal of the Lunar God, who some of you still ascribe the name “Lorkhan”. When stabilized, the words become proof:

All creation is subgradient. First was Void, which became split by AE. Anu and Padomay came next and with their first brush came the Aurbis." part.

Posted by: proweler Oct 1 2005, 10:19 AM

QUOTE(B @ Oct 1 2005, 10:52 AM)

2=C
20=U
1=B
11=L
4=E

cuble

Owh, sorry, I'm wearing boots to build.

Posted by: B Oct 1 2005, 10:50 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ Oct 1 2005, 11:19 AM)

Owh, sorry, I'm wearing boots to build.

I was thinking that, too.

Posted by: Nigedo Oct 1 2005, 12:50 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Oct 1 2005, 03:19 PM)

Owh, sorry, I'm wearing boots to build.

Build? CUBLE=CLIMB

Edit: No actually you are correct. CUBLE = BUILD

Posted by: Gren Oct 1 2005, 12:51 PM

QUOTE(B @ Oct 1 2005, 09:52 AM)

2=C
20=U
1=B
11=L
4=E

cuble

Yes. Of course. I see.

***

Does anyone else feel, when reading the above, a bit like Arthur Dent?

Yours from outside the inner circles,

G

Posted by: Azura's Star Oct 1 2005, 01:38 PM

QUOTE(Marlo LaCroa @ Oct 1 2005, 07:56 AM)

The C0DA broke when Twice Vehk appeared again from Aether, but they captured enough of Him to render the words stable again.

This makes me think that the C0DA is Akatosh. I mean, what element of lore is commonly held to "break" when beings of ambiguous divinity do strange things with the nature of the universe?

As to CUBLE, I think "climb" makes more sense based on past lore, but neither is really definitevly proven just from the document itself (the way, for instance, that "TIF=the" is pretty much beyond doubt).

*edit* The above information is obsolete. CUBLE="build." Kindly disregard my ignorance.

Posted by: Allerleirauh Oct 1 2005, 03:10 PM

Yeah. I'd be a lot happier if people would leave the Annex fan posting and the "New type of zero" fan posting out of the discussion of what WAS a thread with real live developers posting in it, before the total lack of interest drove them off. Whether it's "build" or "cuble" doesn't matter nearly as much as that it's pure fan fiction written by someone with no more authority than I have, and is therefore incapable of revealing new insights about the Tower.

Posted by: Nigedo Oct 1 2005, 03:15 PM

QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Oct 1 2005, 08:10 PM)

Your right for the most part Alli. But people can discuss what they like and I doubt it is disinterest that has kept the devs away.

Most of us are just kicking our heels waiting for another installment by Nu-Hatta, so the cipher was a fun diversion.

Posted by: Adanorcil Oct 1 2005, 03:19 PM

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Oct 1 2005, 09:15 PM)

QUOTE

Scholars are free to do their best at decrypting it, but they should keep in mind that the message itself will reveal little about ourselves, nor will it hold any great meaning to scholars of history or religion.

Maybe that's a kind of confession that what they say is not very important? I agree with you though.

Posted by: Azura's Star Oct 1 2005, 03:26 PM

QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Oct 1 2005, 01:10 PM)

The first reference to CUBLE was by Yagrum Bagarn. Either he's a dev, in which case it was perfectly reasonable to look to him for insight, or (more likely) he's not a dev, in which case, the thread was completely bogus to begin with, and no-one (including the Annex) was disrupting anything important by posting there, since it was entirely dev-free from the start. The threads with actual devs in them are such things as the Loveletter and the Nu-Mantia Intercept, where I haven't seen any of this activity. Still, I agree with you about the irritation factor of fan-fiction masquerading as lore.

Posted by: Allerleirauh Oct 1 2005, 03:29 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Oct 1 2005, 03:26 PM)

Yagrum Bagarn is absolutely NOT a dev. Ted was never in Italy, and neither was anyone else. The thread was bogus to begin with, and it's shameful to use it to disrupt THIS thread, in which Hasphat (who is a dev) was posting with us.

Posted by: Azura's Star Oct 1 2005, 03:39 PM

QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Oct 1 2005, 01:29 PM)

Ah, excuse me, I thought you were referring to a different thread.

I agree with you. On the other hand, when Yagrum Bagarn's thread went up, it had been two days since the last dev post in this thread (MK's), and four since the Hasphat's most recent. I'm not sure we get to credit this for scaring the devs away.

Posted by: Nigedo Oct 1 2005, 04:31 PM

Of course, most people here would have no way of knowing that Yagrum Bagarn's post are not relevant, so it is understandable for them to be excited by them.

Frankly, I see no reason for devs to be "scared off" at all. Plenty of people here are waiting for more news from Nu-Hatta, Antabolis, Divayth Fyr or any dev that drops us more lore.

Like I said elsewhere, "Why let the fools win?"

Posted by: MC_Stalker Oct 1 2005, 04:34 PM

I don't see how any post can scare devs away even if it is saying something among the lines of "Your input is not welcomed". It is just stupid.

Posted by: Dumbkid Oct 1 2005, 04:41 PM

QUOTE(MC_Stalker @ Oct 1 2005, 05:34 PM)

I don't see how any post can scare devs away even if it is saying something among the lines of "Your input is not welcomed". It is just stupid.

Because creating lore and writing takes skill and work.

Posted by: proweler Oct 1 2005, 04:46 PM

QUOTE(Dumbkid @ Oct 1 2005, 05:41 PM)

Because creating lore and writing takes skill and work.

Everybody can acumulate skill and everbody can put work into it. The thing is that you've to go along the lines of Lore and they can change now and then. Half a dozen Daggerfall story's turned from accepted to childrens bed timestory's.

Posted by: Azura's Star Oct 1 2005, 04:59 PM

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Oct 1 2005, 02:31 PM)

Of course, most people here would have no way of knowing that Yagrum Bagarn's post are not relevant, so it is understandable for them to be excited by them.

Yup. I definitely thought it was a dev at first, and I wasn't sure it wasn't until I read Allerleirauh's post. This is one of the reasons I find it pretentious to post something like that here; it's basically impersonating a dev. I was trying to say earlier that I don't blame the people who got excited over that thread at all. I'd have to be a real hypocrite to do so, since I was one of them.

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Oct 1 2005, 02:31 PM)

Frankly, I see no reason for devs to be "scared off" at all. Plenty of people here are waiting for more news from Nu-Hatta, Antabolis, Divayth Fyr or any dev that drops us more lore.

I'm still very excited about the Nu-Mantia thread, and I hope they keep it going, but the fact remains that they've let it lie dormant for too long for comfort. I suppose it's childish of me to try to figure out who is "to blame," but mostly I'm just trying to figure out if I ought to be feeling guilty .

@MC_Stalker, Well, no-one likes to work hard on something, and then show it to their intended audience, and get negative feedback. It doesn't encourage them to do more of the same. I, personally, don't think that this has been happening; I think the new info has been revieved fairly well. I have to disagree with your post, though, since, if I were a dev, and I heard "Your input is not welcomed," I might just stop giving any input.

As I said, though, it doesn't seem to me that this is what's going on. I'm not really sure why the lore has stopped flowing, and my permanently guilty conscience subconsciously wonders if it's my fault.

Posted by: Nigedo Oct 1 2005, 05:07 PM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Oct 1 2005, 09:59 PM)

I'm not really sure why the lore has stopped flowing, and my permanently guilty conscience subconsciously wonders if it's my fault.

Oh, I'm sure it is your fault.

Posted by: Azura's Star Oct 1 2005, 05:27 PM

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Oct 1 2005, 03:07 PM)

Oh, I'm sure it is your fault.

*goes home and cries self to sleep*

Posted by: MC_Stalker Oct 2 2005, 03:21 AM

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Oct 1 2005, 05:59 PM)

@MC_Stalker, Well, no-one likes to work hard on something, and then show it to their intended audience, and get negative feedback. It doesn't encourage them to do more of the same. I, personally, don't think that this has been happening; I think the new info has been revieved fairly well. I have to disagree with your post, though, since, if I were a dev, and I heard "Your input is not welcomed," I might just stop giving any input.

What I was trying to tell is that devs do understand that opinion of one is not opinion of the whole lore society. So if I say "Go away" this doesn't mean that you will say the same. Quite the contrary.
Oh and about working hard on something and getting negative feedback. Don't you think that those fans (Annex and Yagrum) deserve their own piece of pie for putting time and effort and making up the interesting riddles we all have enjoyed (in relation of Annex - will enjoy) solving. And I don't see the problem in people switching threads from time to time. If this poses some kind of a problem to you - go to Oblivion forum and see what's happening there. Now return here and cry in the corner for a day or two

Posted by: MC_Stalker Oct 2 2005, 05:06 AM

Forgot to say one thing. You say that fan info is not valid and we must not spend time working on it... Should I remind you of Dwemeris ? Should we have spent our time working on it ?

Posted by: Allerleirauh Oct 2 2005, 05:40 AM

QUOTE(MC_Stalker @ Oct 2 2005, 05:06 AM)

Forgot to say one thing. You say that fan info is not valid and we must not spend time working on it... Should I remind you of Dwemeris ? Should we have spent our time working on it ?

Not what I'm saying at all. What I said is that fan info and developer info are not the same thing, and have different priorities.

Posted by: MC_Stalker Oct 2 2005, 06:12 AM

Agree on that. But we still do it for fun (mainly) and sometimes dev posts are too much of a riddle.

EDITED FOR STUPIDITY

Posted by: MK Oct 2 2005, 06:54 AM

QUOTE(MC_Stalker @ Oct 2 2005, 07:12 AM)

Agree on that. But we still do it for fun (mainly) and sometimes dev posts are too much of a riddle.

Speaking of which MK and Jobasha's posts cannot be considered lore too.

Do say do what?

Posted by: MC_Stalker Oct 2 2005, 07:04 AM

QUOTE(MK @ Oct 2 2005, 07:54 AM)

Do say do what?

Already edited. The following statement was made because I always thought you were an ex-dev, not involved in any Beth project. Seeing as I was wrong I would like to appologize for the statement made above.

Posted by: Derufuburade Oct 2 2005, 07:21 AM

Erm.
Back to the solipsism part with me:
Let us think that Anu (used here as a common name for that power, not an indication of religios preference) is a being from a different universe, that has managed to achieve what we refer to as CHIM. Let us think that His Other was created as a result of Anu hallucinating due to sensory deprivation. As we know, Anu is stasis and Padomay is change, if we boil them down to basics. If Anu is really in a state where the universe is him and he is the universe, we can also assume that Padomay was imagined not only as an opposing force and\or someone to escape the loneliness with, but also as a factor of changing oneself, because Anu is somehow unable to intiate change in himself.
Or rather, I should say that Anu is all, but what usually referred to as Anu is

QUOTE

Anuiel, his soul and the soul of all things

Basically, I am assuming that both conflicting powers - Anu and Padomay (Anuiel and Sithis if you want) - were hallucinated by the primal Anu - the one that achieved CHIM and the one that is the universe. Anuiel as a way for Anu to exist in the universe as an individual and Sithis as a starting point for Anuiel to kick off his "ruminations". Here's a reference I found in the Altmeri creation myth.

QUOTE

Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself.

Somewhere in this thread, someone mentioned "logging" the thoughts - which may be the reason Anu "created" Auriel (Akatosh) - to log the thoughts\hallucinations\events and fit them into an infinite line that could be referred to (I have trouble believing that Akatosh formed spontaneously).
Further on as the complexity of Anu's hallucinations and their net of interactions grew, Anu gradually stopped hallucinating (i.e. - creating something out of nothing, similar to an act of divine creation in a religion) and the universe now is left to exist by its own laws.

And finally, I pose a question:
Planets are Gods and the Planes of Gods. The Nine Divines and (if I'm right in assuming that this planet is similar to the above-mentioned ones and not Mundus) the Rogue Planet may in actuality be universes in themselves. The Et'ada started out as mixtures of various ideas and limitations that were used to feed Anuiel and Anu's imagination, but seemed to have developed (evolved, even) to gain identities and some of them are now worshipped as Gods. And they have their own Planes, and they ARE their Planes. So could it be possible that during the creation of Mundus, the Et'ada that later came to be Aedra achieved CHIM and became exactly what Anu was, but for different universes?

I know this is all too much of a speculation and that I'm practically rambling, but eh... Just my two cents.

Posted by: MK Oct 2 2005, 08:46 AM

QUOTE(Derufuburade @ Oct 2 2005, 08:21 AM)

*snip*

Right the *snip* on, brother. Good, good, and some good.

Posted by: VXSS Oct 3 2005, 01:53 AM

One step back..... deep breath..... exhale...... let's keep it fun.

I dont want to have to put you ALL on thorazine.

Posted by: Derufuburade Oct 3 2005, 08:15 AM

*meekly* Um, what's that supposed to mean?

Posted by: MK Oct 3 2005, 12:19 PM

QUOTE(Derufuburade @ Oct 3 2005, 09:15 AM)

*meekly* Um, what's that supposed to mean?

I'm not entirely sure myself. Sometimes Noonan hears The Voices. I would pay it no mind unless he goes for the axe under his desk.

I'll just reiterate how delightful your theosophical theory is and would ask you to continue refining.

Posted by: Hannah Oct 3 2005, 03:49 PM

200 posts and all that!

*throws an "that was easy!" locking party*